Where Real Estate Gets Its Dirt

Listing Bits Podcast: Pooling Resources & Expertise Among MLSs – with Betsy Hanson of Markt

From a vendor’s perspective, small MLSs are the most challenging to work with. And that’s no surprise, seeing as how they have fewer resources than the big players in the space.

So, how do we support MLSs with fewer than 400 members in keeping up with NAR rules, for example? Is there a way MLSs might share marketing, support, and compliance services in a way that makes the market work better for all involved?

Betsy Hanson is General Manager and General Counsel at Markt, a multi-MLS service organization focused on pooling resources and expertise to serve MLSs, brokers, and agents. 

On this episode of Listing Bits, Betsy shares her journey from an executive assistant at a small association to her current role at Markt, describing how she avoids the attorney’s reputation as the Department of No.

Betsy offers her take on what organized real estate is missing about the life and times of an ordinary REALTOR, why the average agent doesn’t understand the lawsuits facing the industry, and how those lawsuits might change the way we do things moving forward.

Listen in to understand how Markt works as an MLS back-office provider and learn how Betsy and her team are uniquely positioned to help MLSs of all sizes with local market delivery.

What’s Discussed:  

Betsy’s journey from an executive assistant at a small association to General Counsel at Markt

What differentiates the role of executive assistant from that of the chief of staff

How Betsy avoids the attorney’s reputation as the Department of No

Betsy’s experience teaching English in China between undergrad and law school

What organized real estate is missing about the life and times of an ordinary REALTOR

Why the average REALTOR-on-the-street doesn’t know about the lawsuits facing the industry

How public perception of REALTORS remains positive despite lawsuits around compensation

Betsy’s predictions re: how the lawsuits facing organized real estate might play out

How Markt began as a way for MLSs to pool support resources and create efficiencies

Markt’s potential to solve the challenge small MLSs face in keeping up with NAR rules

Connect with Betsy:

Markt

Email betsy@themarkt.com

Resources:

Notorious ROB

Industry Relations Podcast

Turn On by 1000watt

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CoStar to purchase Realtor.com?

News Corp in Talks to Sell Real Estate Site For $3 Billion

“Rupert Murdoch’s News Corp. is in talks to sell its Move Inc. online real estate business to CoStar Group Inc.

Move is the parent of Realtor.com and other real estate-related websites. The deal is worth about $3 billion, according to people familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified because the discussions are private. The sale could be announced within days, one of the people said.”

After CoStar announced at a recent earnings call they had raised $750M for future acquistions Rob and I on our Industry Relations podcast tried to guess what they would scoop up. I thought we had a pretty good guess with Matterport. Matterport had recently bought VHT Studios. So we thought it would give them some killer IP and a network of photographers. Turns out Zillow took the bait and purchased VRX, and CoStar had bigger fish in mind. Although $3 billion isn’t that much money for CoStar, remember they bid $7 billion for CoreLogic.

Brings up a few questions. Will NAR approve? Or do they even have the say? If NAR was cool with handing the reins to Rupert Murdoch, then Andy Florance seems like a Boy Scout.

What about Homes.com? I’ve been wondering when the new website would be launched, and they recently had a big round of layofffs. Maybe Andy realized that it would take a hell of lot more money to get Homes.com (a distant #3) to compete with Zillow than it would take #2, realtor.com. And the whole “your listing, your lead” actually might play better under the realtor.com umbrella.

Your move Nestfully.

Industry Relations Episode 61: Diagnosing Zillow Angst – with Errol Samuelson, Chief Industry Development Officer at Zillow Group

Zillow has been consumer-centric since its inception in 2006. And in the early days, the tech company didn’t pay much attention to agents. Now Zillow realizes that reducing friction for consumers means helping agents respond to online leads and schedule showings, for example. But is it too late to earn the industry’s trust?

Errol Samuelson is the Chief Industry Development Officer at Zillow Group. With 25 years of experience in proptech, he served in leadership roles at Realtor.com, Top Producer Systems, and Move, Inc. before joining Zillow in 2014. On this episode of Industry Relations, Errol sits down with Rob and Greg to explain why Zillow is acquiring ShowingTime and explore what’s behind the industry’s volatile reaction to the announcement.

Errol discusses the real estate industry’s distrust of Zillow, acknowledging the frustration the tech company has caused over the years and assuring us that his team will not misuse ShowingTime data. Listen in to understand how Errol thinks about CoStar as a competitor and learn why he believes an industry without cooperation and compensation is not good for agents, brokers or consumers.

What’s Discussed:  

Why the real estate industry went apeshit over Zillow’s acquisition of ShowingTime

Zillow’s assurance that ShowingTime will remain an open platform with a strict privacy policy

What problem Zillow is trying to solve by acquiring ShowingTime

Errol’s insight on the rumor that Zillow bought ShowingTime to keep it out of CoStar’s hands

How Errol thinks about the fact that people assume Zillow is lying

Errol’s acknowledgement of the frustrations Zillow has caused agents over the years and how the company’s behavior may have amplified the industry’s distrust

The possibility that social class and age are a factor in the industry’s mistrust of Zillow

The focus of Zillow’s Q4 earnings call (Zillow Offers vs. streamlining the consumer experience overall)

Why innovation in the lending space is limited by federal regulations

The unique opportunity Zillow has to innovate around ownership models

Errol’s thoughts on CoStar as a competitor and why CoStar’s success hinges on the government putting an end to cooperation and compensation

Connect with Errol:

Errol at Zillow

Errol on LinkedIn

Errol on Twitter

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Rob’s Post on Zillow, ShowingTime & Paranoid Realtors

Zillow’s Press Release on Acquiring ShowingTime

ShowingTime

Steve Murray at REAL Trends

CoStar News

Greg on Twitter

Zillow’s Q4 2020 Earnings Call

Zillow Offers

Nick Bailey at RE/MAX

Gary Keller’s 2021 Family Reunion Vision Speech Recap

Trulia

Dotloop

Jay Thompson on Inman

Susan Daimler at Zillow

Rob’s 2020 List of the Seven Most Interesting People in Real Estate

Zillow Home Loans

Divvy

Federal Regulations on Mortgage Finance

REA Group

Andrew Florance at CoStar

Rob’s CoStar Red Dot Report

CoStar’s Q4 2020 Earnings Call

Rob’s Interview with Joe Rand

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Industry Relations Episode 57: On Divorcing Commissions & Weathering the Tweetstorm

The November 2020 DOJ-NAR settlement requires that buyer’s agent commissions are apparent to consumers. But that transparency is just a first step in a push to divorce real estate commissions entirely. Should the other DOJ lawsuits succeed, home buyers will negotiate buy-side commissions directly with the buyer’s agent. So, what happens if the disruptors calling for these changes (like Jack Ryan) get their way?

On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg discuss Sam DeBord’s passionate Tweetstorm in response to their recent interview with Jack Ryan of REX, clarifying the arguments made by both Jack and Sam and considering how transparency around buyer’s agent commissions is likely to reduce the population of agent-facilitators and drive market share to the true realtor-counselors in the space. 

Rob and Greg describe how a rule ending cooperation and compensation would impact the industry long-term, exploring a possible transition from a buyer’s commission to a flat fee or hourly model. Listen in for insight into the questions industry disruptors raise with regard to the role of the MLS, the brokerage and the agent in the absence of cooperation and compensation.

What’s Discussed:  

Lone Wolf’s acquisition of W+R Studios and how Greg & Dan are sharing $1M of the proceeds with their team

Sam DeBord’s passionate Tweetstorm in response to our interview with Jack Ryan of REX

What makes a real estate agent a facilitator vs. a counselor

How transparency around buyer’s agent commissions could significantly reduce the agent population

How Jack Ryan’s background in politics and high finance informs the way he thinks about making real estate better for consumers

How the end of cooperative compensation is likely to disrupt real estate referral networks

The opportunity for vendors to help buyer’s agents demonstrate their value

Why Rob thinks there could be a transition from buyer’s agent commissions to a flat fee or hourly model

What agents and brokers might do to take advantage of the required disclosure of buyer’s agent commissions 

The questions Jack Ryan’s line of attack raises re: the value prop of the MLS or the real estate brokerage in the absence of cooperation and compensation

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Lone Wolf Technologies

Lone Wolf’s Acquisition of W+R Studios

Greg’s Post on the Lone Wolf Acquisition

Sam DeBord on Twitter

Sam DeBord’s Tweetstorm on Jack Ryan

Jack Ryan on Industry Relations EP055

Spencer Rascoff & Austin Allision on Industry Relations EP056

HousingWire’s Acquisition of REAL Trends

Jeff Corbett’s Post on Divorcing Real Estate Commissions

The NAR-DOJ Agreement on MLS Rules

Buyside

Biden’s Proposed First-Time Home Buyer Tax Credit

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Looking for a new gig?

Member Services Representative – FMLS

The Membership Services Representative (MSR) acts as an overall relationship manager for FMLS members who are generally real estate Agents & Brokers. The MSR is responsible for training members, leading relationships with local REALTOR® Associations, convincing new Brokerages to join, working to maintain & improve high customer satisfaction, and ensuring customer retention across a defined geographic territory.

An FMLS MSR acts as our primary company liaison and “quarterback” for customer communication & engagement within an assigned territory.

Experience in Real Estate technology, training, sales, and relationship management is ideal.

Head of Industry Relations – Compass

“As the Head of Industry Relations at Compass, you work on exciting matters that require proactive guidance in the real estate industry. You are a part of a talented in-house legal and industry relations team overseeing projects and relationships that challenge you to think creatively and constructively. These projects will focus on data expansion and sourcing as well as building and managing relationships with industry partners around the country. You are energetic and collaborative — ready to partner in initiatives that influence all aspects of Compass’s business and work with employees across the company. Your contributions will be impactful, value-driven and you will play an instrumental role in the Compass direction and positioning internally and externally.”

The find out about these jobs, or post a job, please visit the Vendor Alley Job Board.

#jobboard

What was missing from NAR messaging regarding the commission lawsuits?

Brian Boero from 1000watt wrote a great post about how “the real estate industry’s responses to the Halloween jury verdict to be almost universally weak.” As usual he makes a lot of great points. You may have heard similar arguments if you listened to Rob and I on our most recent Industry Relations podcast with Sam DeBord.

In Brian’s post he states,

“Good arguments balance evidence with proper framing — framing that is usually constructed to activate the emotions of their intended audience.

Good arguments use language, and words, that ignite feeling and imagery. “Cartel” – a word used over and over by plaintiffs’ attorneys – is a great example.”

I thought I might take a stab at this. I wrote the following as if I was writing for the National Association of REALTORS. Hope you enjoy, and thanks Brian for the inspiration.

Why is the Biden administration so focused on attacking solo female entrepreneurs?

Recently a jury comprising of 6 non-homeowners handed down an award in what is known as the Sitzer | Burnett class action suit. The award was $1.8 billion dollars in a suit suggesting REALTORS were involved in a “cartel”, facilitated by the multiple listing service (MLS), to keep real estate commissions artificially high.  We, the National Association of REALTORS, and 2 other real estate franchisors are appealing this ruling.

It was also recently discovered that the plaintiffs in the case had been is close communication with the DOJ before, during and after the trial ended.

The average REALTOR is a 59 year woman and is classified as an independent contractor.  Selling real estate is commission only sales job with no salary, and no benefits.  Why do these 59 year old women strike so much fear in the heart of the federal government?  Surely there are other pressing issues facing our country.

Buying a home isn’t the same as buying a stock.

In a recent hit piece the WSJ cited that since the advent of the internet prices have been slashed on  “stockbroker commissions”, but not real estate.  What may seem obvious, to everyone but the WSJ, buying a home is not like buying a stock, or a book, or a plane ticket.  3 factors come to mind. 

1. Buying and selling a home is typically the largest transaction anyone does in their life. 

2. Buying and selling a home is not a transaction done often, statistics show it might be once every 10 years after you become an adult. 

3. And last but not least is that buying or selling a home is an emotional experience. 

Due to these 3 core issues consumers have chosen time and time again (in fact in 2022, more consumers choose to use a REALTOR than ever before) to hire a trusted advisor.

The 1.5% vs. 6% Lie

Plaintiffs in the Sitzer | Burnett case and others have highlighted that in other countries consumers pay closer to 1.5% for real estate commissions, where in the United States the number is closer to 6%. The truth is consumers in the US have always had choices.  Discount brokerages offer real estate services for much lower than 6%.  In fact very recently Redfin did a nationwide campaign with big red billboards all over the country touting a 1% listing fee, which is less than the 1.5% fee touted by plaintiffs.

So the 1.5% vs 6% is a lie.  Consumers can always negotiate a commission and there are many brokerages and agents offering discounted services.  Don’t believe us, just Google, “flat fee real estate services” and search the over 29 million results.

Would consumers prefer a world where they would have no idea what the house across the street sold for?

Since the birth of the World Wide Web, and the launch of portals like Zillow, real estate listing data is now readily accessible everywhere, a sharp contrast to the rest of the world.  This is mostly due to the multiple listing service (MLS).  The plaintiffs falsely say that the structure and ownership of the MLS forces higher commission rates. This is simply not the truth.  The MLS is one of this country’s greatest inventions and an essential tool of every REALTOR.  The MLS brings together sellers and buyers. It’s reliable. It helps hundreds of thousand agents make a living and brings families together. It’s the operating system of the American Dream.  

The federal government wants to shut down the MLS, which would create a environment of less transparency and bring us back to companies gatekeeping real estate data which would make it more difficult to make offers on properties for sale and finding properties on the internet.

We at the National Association of REALTORS will fight for our members, the open real estate market, and will not let the federal government destroy the American Dream.

The National Association of REALTORS

The 2023 Swanepoel Power 200

Let’s face it, we all love lists. “What’s your top 5 albums?”, “Rank the 10 greatest basketball players”, etc. ,etc. ,etc.

Well the SP200 is out today and some big changes with Gino Blefari, President and CEO of HomeServices of America, taking the top spot from Gary Keller. Some are calling this controversial. I think Rich Barton and Andy Florance should have ranked higher but nobody asked me. Sue Yannaccone, newly minted CEO and President, Anywhere Brands is the top female executive at #6, I’m a big fan of hers so that was good to see.

But on to what I’m really interested in, how did our peeps in organized real estate do? I count about 19 MLS execs on the list. I think that is 4 more than last year. At the top of this is the Mt. Rushmore of MLS Execs (since they appeared that way on the list). Art Carter, CEO of CRMLS, Brian Donnellan, CEO of Bright MLS and Bob Hale, CEO of HAR.

Art is off to a running start in 2023 with the addition of SRAR, bringing CRMLS’ member count north of 110,000.

Teresa King Kinney of Miami AOR at # 65, Jon DiMichele of TREBB at #74, and it wouldn’t be a Top200 list without Merri Jo Cowen, CEO of Stellar MLS #84, Rebecca Jensen, CEO of MRED at # 93, deal maker extraordinaire, Jeremy Crawford of FMLS continues his rise to #102 this year.

Matt Consalvo #110, CEO of ARMLS and Dionna Hall #115, CEO of Beaches MLS both jumped ten spots from last year. Emily Chenevert, CEO of Austin Board of REALTORS leaped 13 spots up from last year to #142


Tom Hurdelbrink, CEO of NWMLS made a huge leap up 15 spots from last year to #155, although with the leadership NWMLS has done this past year regarding transparency I would have loved to see him higher on the list.


Brad Bjelke CEO of UtahRealEstate.com catapulted up 19 spots from last year to #159, and great to see Gene Millman, CEO of REColorado.com land at #167 on the list and Rick Trevino, CEO of MetroList Services debuts on the list at #174 (Go Rick!)


Also cool to see Stuart White, CEO of Realtracs at #176 and it looks like this year AnneMarie DeCatsye, CEO of Canopy MLS went from #192 to #181. Plus “don’t call it a comeback” Tim Dain was listed at #188 and the spectacular Shelley Specchio came in at #194.

***Please forgive me if I missed someone. Just DM me and I’ll make the correction.***

And it is always great to see Sam DeBord #144, CEO of RESO and Denee Evans #178, CEO of CMLS be recognized for all the great work they do for the industry. I would also add the prophet himself, Mike Wurzer, CEO of FBS to that category.

I’m also contractually obligated (just kidding!) to mention that Lone Wolf CEO, Jimmy Kelly lept 6 spots to #52 on the list. How could you not love a CEO name Jimmy!?

And I did want to make a special call out to a special person on the “SP200 Watchlist“, Caitlin McCrory, VP of Industry Relations, Anywhere Real Estate.

I’ve been following Caitlin’s career for a while now and she has a passion for the industry that is infectious, it’s just all kinds of wonderful to see her recognized.

Industry Relations Episode 53: Protecting the REALTOR Brand from ‘Conduct Unbecoming’

REALTORs are tasked with helping families make the biggest financial decision of their lives. To that end, NAR wants to preserve the idea of a REALTOR as an intelligent professional. And when an agent engages in conduct unbecoming of a realtor (like posting racial slurs on social media, having sex in an empty listing, or threatening the life of a broker who takes a job at Zillow), the association can and should protect the REALTOR brand and let that agent go.

On this episode of the podcast, Rob and Greg are discussing the series of speech code proposals made by the NAR Professional Standards Committee to prevent realtors from discriminating against the protected classes and using harassing or hate speech, epithets, or slurs in both their personal and professional lives. 

Rob and Greg go on to explore the problems with the committee’s proposal, explaining why it’s difficult to define what qualifies as harassing or hate speech and how the rules don’t address other kinds of unprofessional behavior. Listen in for insight on how a Conduct Unbecoming Clause would work as an alternative to protect the realtor brand from behavior that is ‘disgraceful, unprofessional, and unbecoming’ of an agent.

What’s Discussed: 

An overview of the series of proposals made by the NAR Professional Standards Committee

–Policy Statement 29 applies NAR Code of Ethics to conduct outside of real estate

–Standard of Practice 10-5 prohibits harassing/hate speech, epithets, or slurs of protected classes

–Definition of ‘public trust’ expanded to include all discrimination against protected classes

The problems Rob sees with the committee’s proposal

–Difficult to define what qualifies as harassing or hate speech

–Leaves out threats, harassment of unprotected classes

–Many conservative realtors feel targeted by changes

The benefits of Rob’s alternative Conduct Unbecoming Clause

How the history of race in America informs the way NAR is approaching the proposed changes

The value in protecting the realtor brand from conduct that is disgraceful, unprofessional, and unbecoming of an agent

Connect with Rob and Greg:

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

NAR’s Proposed Speech Code Regulations

Rob’s Post on the Proposed Speech Code Regs

The NAR Professional Standards Committee

‘NAR Proposes Ethics Changes to Crack Down on Social Media Harassment’ in Inman

‘NAR’s Proposed Ethics Changes Miss the Mark’ in Inman

Raise the Bar in Real Estate Facebook Group

Canadian Real Estate Association

CREA’s Conduct Unbecoming Clause

Rob’s Post on the Reputation of Realtors

Racism in Real Estate on Industry Relations EP052

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Industry Relations Episode 59: Forecasting a Hot Housing Market in 2021 – with Jeff Tucker, Senior Economist at Zillow

Zillow’s Economic Research Team just released its forecast for 2021, and they expect it to be the best year for home sales since 2005. In fact, Zillow’s number crunchers believe that a whopping 6.8M existing homes will close next year, marking the biggest one-year gain in sales (nearly 22%!) since the early 1980’s.

Jeff Tucker is a Senior Economist at Zillow Research where he studies the causes and consequences of changing supply in the housing market. On this episode of Industry Relations, Jeff joins Rob and Greg to discuss the inputs his team used to make its predictions for 2021 and describe how current growth differs from what we saw at the height of the bubble in 2005.

Jeff offers insight around the demographics of who’s buying and selling homes right now, sharing his take on why the low millennial marriage rate may not impact the housing market as much as we think and how feasible it is for young, working-class Americans to afford home ownership. Listen in to understand how COVID facilitated the single-family home inventory crash and get an economist’s perspective on why the housing market will stay hot through 2021.

What’s Discussed:  

The inputs Jeff’s team used to predict that 6.8M existing homes will close in 2021

How current growth differs from what we saw at the height of the bubble in 2005

The decrease in share of income spent on mortgages since 2018

Why the iBuyer’s mission to create a frictionless experience is so important moving forward

Jeff’s insight around the demographics of who’s buying and selling homes

The distinction between family and household formation 

Why the low millennial marriage rate may or may not impact the housing market

How COVID facilitated a single-family home inventory crash

Why Jeff sees appreciation slowing down by the end of 2021

Jeff’s take on the feasibility of home ownership for working-class millennials

How the skyrocketing US money supply might impact the real estate market

Connect with Jeff:

Zillow Research

Jeff at Zillow

Jeff on Twitter

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Lone Wolf Technologies

Zillow’s Forecast for 2021

NAR Data on Single Women Home Buyers

Pew Research on Millennials & Marriage

Our Sponsors: 

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Industry Relations Episode 48: What NAR’s Revised Code of Ethics Means for REALTORS – with Laura Farley

Not too long ago, REALTORS were unified, often claiming to be neither Democrat nor Republican but members of the REALTOR Party. Today, however, the polarization in our country is reflected in the real estate community. And the recent changes to the NAR Code of Ethics, specifically Standard of Practice 10-5, seem to have pushed us even farther apart. So, how are these changes likely to affect REALTORS in practice? Can we be more inclusive without favoring one political party over another? 

Laura Farley serves as General Counsel at the Virginia REALTORS Association, and she has more than 10 years of experience handling and supervising professional standards cases. Prior to joining the state association, Laura was an attorney for the Northern Virginia Association of REALTORS. On this episode of Industry Relations, Laura joins Rob and Greg to provide an overview of the three major changes to NAR’s Code of Ethics and offer insight into how those changes might impact real estate professionals now that the professional standards apply to everything a REALTOR does, real estate related or not.

Laura explains why NAR’s list of protected classes in Standard of Practice 10-5 is more inclusive than a lot of states and addresses the subjective nature of determining intent as well as the concerns that 10-5 gives some REALTORS more speech rights than others. She also discusses the significance of removing the word ‘willful’ from NAR’s definition of public trust, introducing us to the concept of disparate impact—and why it may or may not apply to Article 10. Listen in for Laura’s insight on how 10-5 has further polarized the REALTOR community and get her take on the best possible outcome around the revised Code of Ethics.

What’s Discussed:  

Laura’s decade of legal experience with professional standards cases

Laura’s overview of the 3 major changes to the NAR Code of Ethics

Why NAR’s list of protected classes is more inclusive than most state lists

The significance of the word ‘use’ in Standard of Practice 10-5 (REALTORS must not ‘use’ harassing speech, hate speech, epithets or slurs)

The controversy around how 10-5 gives some REALTORS more speech rights than others

The subjective nature of determining an agent’s intent to harm, hurt or harass

How Laura thinks about the concerns of REALTORS on the political right re: implicit bias

The significance of removing the word ‘willful’ from the definition of public trust

The concept of disparate impact and why it may or may not apply to Article 10

How the change to 10-5 has further polarized the REALTOR community

Connect with Laura:

Virginia REALTORS

Laura at Virginia REALTORS

Email: lfarley [at] virginiarealtors [dot] org

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Laura’s Code of Ethics Update Video

Virginia REALTORS Code of Ethics Resources

NAR Code of Ethics Changes

NAR’s Code of Ethics & Standards of Practice

Rob’s Post on an Alternative to the New Speech Code

Virginia REALTORS Diversity & Inclusion PAG

Rob’s Post on Disparate Impact

Norwood v. Harrison

Railway v. Hanson

Jenna Ryan

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