Where Real Estate Gets Its Dirt

Industry Relations Episode 35: The DOJ’s Scrutiny of Cooperating Compensation

Industry Relations has been nominated by Inman News Innovator award for INNOVATIVE VIDEO/PODCAST SHOW. Thanks for everyone’s support!

And now, on with the show…


When Moehrl v. NAR was introduced in March, the industry response was largely… meh. Then in April, the Department of Justice reached out to the top MLS platform vendor, requiring documents and testimony about MLS data—with a specific focus on cooperating compensation. What is the DOJ likely to find? How might this information impact the class action suit? And what does it all mean for the real estate industry as a whole?

Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the Civil Investigative Demand (CID) CoreLogic recently received from the DOJ. They address the possibility of getting compensation data in the absence of a search feature on the MLS and predict whether the DOJ will find buyer-steering to be a widespread phenomenon. 

Rob offers his take on why a directive requiring the disclosure of sold information would be more likely than new regulations, and Greg speculates that the industry is unlikely to stand by while the government eliminates cooperating compensation. Listen in to understand how the plaintiff attorneys in Moehrl v. NAR might use the DOJ’s findings and learn why organized real estate needs to take the lawsuit seriously.

What’s Discussed: 

The Civil Investigative Demand CoreLogic received from the DOJ

Getting compensation data without a feature search on the MLS

What a DOJ study demonstrating buyer steering might achieve

Why disclosure of sold info is more likely than new regulations

How many brokers + agents script for the commission question

How DOJ findings might be used by attorneys in Moehrl v. NAR

How the Canadian Competition Bureau handled this issue

The potential impact of eliminating cooperating compensation

How it could take up to 10 years to resolve the class action case

Connect with Rob and Greg:

Rob’s Website 

Greg’s Website 

Resources:

Rob’s Post on CoreLogic & the DOJ

Rob’s 2015 Post on the NBER Study

Randy Ora’s Live Listing Presentation 

Rob’s Post on the Brookings Institute Panel

Competition Bureau of Canada Resolution

Inman Coast to Coast Facebook Group

Listing Bits and Industry Relations nominated for 2 “Inman Innovator Awards”

I was pleasantly surprised to see 2 podcasts I produce nominated for Inman Innovator Awards. I believe this is the first year of this category (INNOVATIVE VIDEO/PODCAST SHOW).

Rob and I are on our 36th episode of Industry Relations and both of us are having a great time. I think of it as the directors commentary (nod to The Talk Show) for both our blogs.

Listing Bits has also been fun. Getting to have conversations with people I admire and respect has been a great experience and I plan on doing many more. Two of my favorite episodes include my conversations with Marc Davison of 1000watt and Glenn Kelman, CEO of Redfin.

Also nominated in the same category is Emily Chenevert’s excellent podcast, ScratchThat. I’m also a big fan of Russ Cofano’s Gradually Then Suddenly podcast too. And if you are an agent, Tom Ferry’s podcast, The Tom Ferry Podcast Experience is a don’t miss.

There are other categories too, but I’ll write about those for another post. Good luck to everyone nominated!

Fear and why iBuyers Offers and Zestimates belong in your CMAs

Jay Thompson, writing on Inman News, Why iBuyers and Zestimates belong in your CMAs 

“Greg Robertson, W+R Studios co-founder, was attacked, called clueless, and challenged as to whether he had any industry experience (yes, almost three decades worth.) IBuyers, also highlighted in the headline, got one mention. Nothing else in the survey report was discussed. A few commenters waded into the fray showing understanding of why they at least look at Zestimates and sometimes mention them in listing presentations. The vast majority of commenters sounded off on the evils of Zillow and the Zestimate.”

I will say I am “clueless” about many, many things. My wife will tell you as much.

Sorry this post is a little long, but I think it touches on a lot of issues (not to mention a shameless plug for my company ????).

Jay, as you may know, is a former broker (The Phoenix Real Estate Guy) and worked at Zillow in Industry Relations for some time. His article is in response to an article published on Inman News about W+R Studios’ announcement of the results of their inaugural survey, 2020 Best Practices of CMAs and Listing Presentations.

Here’s more from Jay…

“No one, including Zillow, W+R Studios or me, is saying the Zestimate should be used as a comparable in your CMA. Of course it shouldn’t be, that’s not its intent or purpose. But to ignore it is to ignore something your clients are looking at and wondering about. Address it upfront, leave out your personal feelings about Zillow, and put any objections to rest early in the process. The listing presentation is the ideal time to address it with sellers, and the CMA is the perfect place to have it on record. “

Emphasis mine

Cloud CMA pioneered ways of including Zestimates to compare against actual sold prices from the MLS data as part of a Cloud CMA report. This has since been copied by other vendors. I was surprised by the amount of push-back we got when we introduced it. Many MLS organizations (after pushback from their members) made us turn the report page off by default, or in some cases, turned off altogether. But every time I sat down, one on one, with a broker or MLS executive and showed them how the report page worked, they understood, “wow this is great, agents are going to love it.”

This happens all the time. Many agents and brokers just hear/read “Zestimate” or “iBuyer” and begin to see red.

As we can see in the survey results and the comments on the article there is still a lot of fear out there. And as Mr. Hurbert once wrote, “fear, is the mind-killer”.

Flash forward to a little less than a year ago when W+R Studios introduced a way of including iBuyer Offers (with Opendoor) in Cloud CMA. We were met with the same type of fear and got a lot of push back and false claims.

“You’re going to put agents out of business!”
“Shame on you Cloud CMA!”

And those were the polite ones. I took these comments hard. We put many of our partner MLS organizations in a tough spot. They began to get calls from their members that “Cloud CMA was sending our CMAs to Opendoor!” (not true). The misinformation got so bad we had to create a document refuting some of the most outrages claims.

But we held firm because we knew, to paraphrase Jay, the listing presentation is an ideal time to address iBuyer Offers, and the CMA is a perfect place to have it on record.

Dan and I are always looking for new ways to innovate, and we are willing to take risks and keep our customers ahead of the curve. Even if these ideas seem crazy or counter-intuitive at the time.

The main thing that got us through the periods I wrote about above was, in the end, our customers (MLS organizations, brokers, and agents) trusted us.

In a recent “Friday Flash” blog post, titled “What are you saying” Brian Boero, CEO of 100watt wrote:

“Honestly, I am glad we have arrived at a point where there are no more red lines to transgress. I used to get revved up about this stuff too. Now, Zillow buys, owns and sells homes, Realtor.com charges referral fees, and yet good agents, teams and brokers continue to do their thing. “

Unlike Brian, I don’t think we are there yet. We still need to get over our fear of these new (old?) models, which as Rob Hahn and I discuss in recent Industry Relations podcast point out, keep turning more and more towards agent inclusion. We need to focus our energy on more positive things. We have a lot more to worry about than Zestimates and iBuyers.

I just hope the industry can take the advice of what a wise old hippie once said…

“You gotta let that shit go, man. Let it go.”

Industry Relations Episode 36: The Fundamental Flaws in the Traditional Brokerage Model

Traditional brokerages got 99 problems. They’ve got to compete with iBuyers. They’ve got to compete with 100% commission models. They’ve got to innovate new products and services. They’ve got to figure out a way to make money off those products and services. And they’ve got to worry about potential industry regulations and the insane amount of capital flowing in to would-be disruptors. So, what can brokerages do to address the fundamental flaws in the traditional model—and survive the next five years?

Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the top issues traditional brokerages face and what they can do about it. They address the implications around Compass’ renewed focus on product and Wall Street analyst John Campbell’s comments regarding the tipping point Realogy and other traditional brokerages face.

Rob and Greg weigh in on the fact that brokerages LOSE money on top producers and the challenge of monetizing products and services for agents. Listen in for insight around the future of traditional models like that of Realogy and RE/MAX and learn how agents and brokerages might adapt to the disruptions facing the real estate industry.

What’s Discussed: 

The public interest argument for representing the buyer’s side

The implications around Compass’ renewed focus on product

John Campbell’s comments on the tipping point Realogy faces

The issues around productivity in a traditional brokerage model

Why brokers need to make money through products + services

How brokerage iBuyer initiatives are really listing lead programs

Why Upstream doesn’t address the problems brokers face now

The fundamental flaws in the traditional brokerage model

The future of Realogy, RE/MAX, Redfin, eXp and Home Services

What agents might do in a world with 60% iBuyer market share

Connect with Rob and Greg:

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Scratch That Podcast

Gradually … Then, Suddenly! Podcast

The Tom Ferry Podcast Experience

Nick Kremydas on Twitter

Glenn Kelman on Scratch That EP010

‘Is a Compass IPO Coming Soon?’ in Inman

John Campbell’s Comments in MarketWatch

Inman Connect

UpstreamRE

The DOJ’s Scrutiny of Cooperating Compensation on IR EP035

Rob’s Future of Brokerage Black Paper

Industry Relations Episode 37: Inman Connect Las Vegas Pre-Show – RealScout, Opendoor, Redfin and Coming Soon Listings

Fight! Fight! Fight!

We’ve always been told that people love it when Rob and Greg argue.  If that true, then we have one of the best Industry Relations Show ever!

With Inman Connect Las Vegas on the horizon, Rob and Greg are facing off over the trend toward exclusive listings and the new Redfin-Opendoor partnership. What does the development of in-house listing programs mean for the industry? And how will the joint venture with Opendoor impact RedfinNow? Our intrepid hosts have very different answers to these questions.

On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing the impact of systematic coming soon listings. Rob makes the argument that widespread adoption will take down the MLS, moving residential real estate to the commercial model. Greg makes the case that pocket listings are nothing new and challenges the idea that the MLS will become a ‘dumping ground’ for properties that haven’t sold privately.

Rob and Greg also weigh in on the new partnership between Redfin and Opendoor. Listen in for Greg’s insight around why the collaboration is a genius move that benefits both parties and learn why Rob sees it as a huge concession on Redfin’s part—a concession that will eliminate their own iBuyer operations in each and every Opendoor market.

What’s Discussed: 

What Rob & Greg are looking forward to most at Inman Connect

Greg’s criticism of Rob’s recent posts on RealScout’s Buyer Graph

Rob’s argument that coming soon programs will take down the MLS

Greg’s counter that exclusive listings are not a new phenomenon

How residential real estate may be moving to a commercial model

Greg’s take on the brilliance of the Redfin & Opendoor partnership

How the new partnership with Opendoor will impact RedfinNow

Rob’s view of the partnership as a concession on the part of Redfin

Connect with Rob and Greg:

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Inman Connect

Notorious R.O.B. Blog

RealScout Buyer Graph

HAR YPN

Howard Hanna Find It First

Top Agent Network

Redfin & Opendoor Partnership

RedfinNow

Offerpad

Our Sponsors:

Boost Summit

Notorious V.I.P.

Industry Relations Episode 34: T3, GFK & the Unveiling of Redfin Direct

Rob and Greg have often said that Redfin is the most important tech-centric brokerage that no one is talking about. Well, that is about to change with the company’s unveiling of Redfin Direct, a service allowing consumers to buy properties without representation. What’s behind Glenn Kelman’s move to give customers another ‘layer of choice’? And how might the real estate industry respond?

Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit, from Rich Barton to Gary Keller to John Peyton. They describe the pervasive nature of brokerages talking strategically about competing with iBuyers and tech as well as the buzz around Art Carter’s call for a new type of organizational structure around the MLS. 

Greg speaks to the way ‘GFK’ won the room at T3 with his humor and authenticity, and Rob asks about the impetus behind Redfin Direct and how the industry might respond. Listen in for insight around how the program puts Redfin on the radar in a way it hasn’t been before and learn how Redfin Direct might work in conjunction with Redfin Now and the brokerage’s title and mortgage programs.

Program Note: This was recorded before RE/MAX and Redfin announced they had dissolved their partnership

What’s Discussed: 

Greg’s insight on the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit

Art Carter’s call for a new type of MLS organizational structure 

The pervasive nature of brokerages addressing iBuyers + tech

How Glenn Kelman ‘won the room’ with his authenticity at T3

The stark contrast between Redfin and Compass’ mission

Greg’s take on Redfin Direct + the potential industry response

The impetus behind Redfin Direct and how it was announced

How Redfin Direct supports its title + mortgage programs

How Redfin Direct puts the company on the industry’s radar

Connect with Rob and Greg:

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

Mike Simonsen, Rob Hahn & Gahlord Dewald Talk Millennials

The T3 Summit

Redfin’s Q1 Earnings Release

Glenn Kelman on Listing Bits EP045

Bill Wendel on Twitter

‘Redfin Direct Offers’ on Bubble Info

Greg’s Blog on Redfin Direct

Andrea Riquier’s Interview with Rob on MarketWatch

Our Sponsors:

Cloud MLX

The Red Dot

Ginger Wilcox takes top spot at BH&G

Ginger Wilcox

BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS REAL ESTATE ANNOUNCES GINGER WILCOX AS BRAND PRESIDENT

“Wilcox moves to the helm of BHGRE after holding several prominent leadership roles spanning real estate technology, brokerage, and transaction services. She brings a proven track record of developing and growing unique brands in the industry, having served as Head of Industry Marketing and Relations for Trulia, an online real estate marketplace, where she focused on marketing innovation and digital engagement.  Early in her career, Wilcox developed an award-winning online real estate brand and brokerage, Marin Fine Properties, which was honored as a finalist for the Inman Innovator Awards for most innovative real estate website, as well as a finalist for the National Association of REALTORS® Center for REALTOR® Technology Spotlight Awards.”

Dan and I started W+R Studios in 2008, at the very start of the GFC. Which is a crazy thing to do if you think about it. The whole world wide economy is crashing around you because of real estate and you are starting a software company focusing on real estate.

That same year I remember being at Inman Connect and seeing Sherry Chris launch Better Homes & Gardens. Holy crap, I thought. Here is this women launching a real estate company, in a time like this, just like us. And Sherry did it in the most fun way, announcing via Twitter and other Social Media networks. The optimism! The chutzpah! The balls! Ever since then I’ve held an affinity for Sherry and the BH&G brand. It was mixed emotions seeing the announcement of her retirement. No one in the industry has matched her class and style.

So it’s great to see one of my favorite people in the industry take on the top leadership role at BH&G, Ginger Wilcox. Another women I respect so much. After leaving Trulia Ginger spent a lot of time in the fintech space but now I’m happy to see her come back to the ORE space. Can’t wait to see her at the next event and raise a glass to her new gig. Congrats to Ginger, Sherry and BH&G!

Katie Smithson leaves Zillow for a senior gig at CRMLS

Katie Smithson

Thank you, next? In another sign that MLS organizations are starting to take control of their own destinies, Katie Smithson has left Zillow and taken a senior position at CRMLS.

CRMLS Appoints Katie Smithson as new Chief Revenue Officer

CHINO HILLS, Calif., November 7, 2022 — On November 15th, California Regional MLS (CRMLS) will welcome their latest executive appointment, Katie Smithson in the role of Chief Revenue Officer (CRO). Smithson is a long-time veteran in the real estate industry with a history of MLS relation management and product innovation. Smithson has been in the real estate industry for 14 years, most recently as Director of MLS Relations for Bridge Interactive with Zillow.

In her new role, Smithson will be directing revenue operations, ensuring proper communication and collaboration between all the revenue-generating departments at CRMLS. She will be charged with improving customer satisfaction, product strategy, and sales performance.

“We’re looking forward to welcoming Katie to the CRMLS Executive Team,” says CRMLS CEO Art Carter. “Her experience is invaluable, and I am confident that she will be a great addition to the company as the MLS industry evolves and CRMLS moves forward as a company. “

“I am excited to join the extremely talented team at CRMLS,” says Smithson. “I’ve worked with them for years and always admired the caliber of leadership, so when this opportunity came along, it only made sense to say yes. I am inspired by the vision CRMLS has and can’t wait to help shape the future of our industry.”

As a vendor in the MLS Industry Smithson has an extensive track record of success in building B2B relationships, increasing returns, and developing product offerings. She has also served as a NAR REACH mentor, a board member for the Council of MLS with a CMLX 1 certification, and RESO Board Secretary.

About California Regional Multiple Listing Service (CRMLS)

California Regional MLS is the nation’s largest and most recognized subscriber- based MLS, dedicated to servicing more than 110,000 real estate professionals from 41 Associations, Boards, and MLS organizations. CRMLS is the industry powerhouse and thrives on providing the most relevant products and services to its subscribers. For more information on CRMLS, visit www.crmls.org.

New RESO Officers and Directors announced

RESO Elects 2020 Officers and Directors

“The Real Estate Standards Organization (RESO) has announced its 2020 Executive Board and the results of its Board of Directors election for five open seats and other board appointments.


“RESO is attracting an unmatched pool of business and technology leaders who will help accelerate our vision of a streamlined real estate technology industry,” said Sam DeBord, CEO of RESO. “Our leadership team is devoted to a brighter future for real estate standards that foster the creation of technology as frictionless as using a mobile phone.”

Congrats to Katie Smithson and the rest of the new appointees.

2020 RESO Executive Board:
Rebecca Jensen, President and CEO, Midwest Real Estate Data LLC (MRED) – Chair
Michael Wurzer, President and CEO, FBS, Creators of Flexmls – Vice Chair
Suzanne Mueller, Chief Industry Relations Officer, realtor.com, Move, Inc. – Secretary
Richard Renton, CEO, Triad MLS – Treasurer

Representing Technology Companies, Developers, Partners & Consultants with revenue over $25 Million:
Chip McAvoy (Incumbent) – EVP Real Estate Solutions, Black Knight, Inc.

Representing Technology Companies, Developers, Partners & Consultants with revenue under $25 Million:
Mark Lesswing – Owner, Lesswing, LLC
Katie Smithson – Director of Enterprise Services, W+R Studios

Representing Multiple Listing Services and/or REALTOR® Affiliated Association with under 50,000 subscribers:
Rebecca Jensen (Incumbent) – President & CEO, Midwest Real Estate Data LLC (MRED)

Representing Other Associations or Groups:
Jeff Young (Incumbent) – COO / General Manager, Realtors Property Resource, LLC (RPR)

Appointed for 2020:
Suzanne Mueller, Chief Industry Relations Officer, realtor.com, Move, Inc.
Richard Renton, CEO, Triad MLS
Turan Tekin, Director, MLS and Industry Development, Zillow Group
Michael Wurzer, President and CEO, FBS, Creators of Flexmls

Appointed RESO Board Advisor:
Scott Woodard – CEO, ShowingTime

Looking for a new gig?

Director, MLS Sales – Restb.AI

“Responsible for managing and overseeing MLS B2B sales in North America. Primary responsibilities will include designing plans to meet sales targets, negotiating deals, developing and cultivating relations with clients to maintain and grow customer satisfaction and retention. We’re looking for someone who loves working in a high-tech environment and is familiar with API, AI, cloud technology and SaaS. Candidate should be comfortable working in a dynamic environment without constant supervision.”

Data Services Specialist -realMLS

“realMLS, located in Jacksonville, FL, serves over 11,000 members spanning across 5 counties. Our membership base continues to grow as do the member’s needs. We are seeking a full time data services specialist to assist in evaluating data quality, establishing procedures, maintenance ensuring that all date meets industry standards as defined by RESO (Real Estate Standards Organization). In this role, you will be also assist with documenting, troubleshooting, and resolving any data related issues.”

The find out about these jobs or post a job, please visit the Vendor Alley Job Board.


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